Fractal Socionics
– Basic Fractal stuff
Fractal Epistemology for a scientific psychology: bridging philosophy, psychology and socionics – how do u like the name? xD
The fact that cognition and science exist is us who are able to form a fractal model of the world that is some kind of knowledge attractor. (ILE = cognition = identity dichotomy = common trait of humanity)
Fractal Methodology - connection to socionics proposition logic (idk how to call it, its my old dream to make philosophy a science using socionics and logic) and Ne-sentences (fundamental principles)
Ugly Duckling archetypical scenario
rejected by scientific community + fractal socionics is rejected by socionics community
Sylvester construction of Hadamard matrices is the recurring algorithm (1867!!!)
Self-similarity: Identity and Duality of each element in the system, ubiquitous properties
Identity - having a pattern, a semantic field
Duality - corresponding to a dichotomy (polarity), existence of a dual element
Nesting Dolls structure - model A inside TIM
– imaginary plane - fourier transform as a foundation of the consciousness
– NeTi is equivalent for Identity and Equivalence (pun intended)
– Equivalence-Distinction logic of socionics
XOR and XNOR operations on the rows/columns of Sylvester Hadamard matrix
sum mod2
– Fractal boundary of dichotomies.
Since each dichotomy has its pattern and corresponds to an Element, it has an Identity which has fractal properties. Corresponding element seems to be a paragon of this border.
– Socionics elements are numbers on the toroidal space. The semantics of an archetype depends on the scale. {super interesting, so a torus represents the manifold?}
4/4 = introverted rationality
4/8 = Ti, which is more detailed
4/16 = LII, which is even more detailed
(also it shows some of vertical connections in socionics, when elements of different level show strong similarity)
– Strange Loop property
since u can describe everything through everything it may form loops in explanations
especially due to vertical connections
– Ouroboros structure. Socion is considered as a some kind of ring or torus or toroidal link, which makes it a closed structure. The order has archetypical order which starts with ILE-Identity and ends with EII-Being a supervisor a relation that rotates Model A 90 degrees bridging delta and alpha quadras, the end with the beginning
– Observer and Observed are connected by attractors of the perception (Leading fn)
– structure is finite, but information is infinite, coz we can interpret it however much we like {this is fractal, with a finite perimeter and infinite area}
its connected to hermeneutics, fractal properties of perception, information and science
– bifurcation and trees. relation to bifurcation idea and tree structures. 4 bifurcations before chaos? {the concept of 4 represents feedback and self-reference}
Identity
Identity fractal logic - if you combine random Ne-words into a sentence you get a very deep thought :D
The most general socionics principles can be described this way
Identity is a very wide concept, which covers multiple phenomena in socionics. (scalable and multivariate term)
EGO block - identity in psyche
Ne - identity in information
Id ITR - identity in relationships
questionable formulations?:
Existence - identity in dichotomies
ILE - cognition/science - identity in society
Equivalence - identity in logic
Algebraic group properties and their neutral element
they do have some traits in common, they always stand first in their system. they simultaneously mean universal, typological and individual traits of set they lie in
Ego block and nested in it Leading function - correspond to psychic reflection of the world. Inner model of the outer world and self within it.
corresponds to extraverted intuition - perception of the outer, interpretation, meaning filling - chaotic process of modeling the reality
it has fractal properties of:
Scalability - our worldview/perspective scales for our needs
Self-reference: i know that i think that fractals are the foundations of existence
Chaos and attraction of perception to IE of leading function, to programming (projection mechanism). Subject pays attention to the information of his Leading fn with highest probability
(Chaos space of meanings????)
recognition
perception is chaotic, perception of socionics is chaotic^2
Ne - Extraverted Intuition
information about the identity, about ideas, about general properties, traits, characteristics, qualities, the main meaning
information about the content (general info)
contains information about possibilities (quantum?)
self referential information about information
any information has meaning (universality)
scalable (general) and versatile information - fractal and quantum properties?
connection to pattern?
Identity Intertype Relations
ITR between 2 subject with the same TIM
corresponds to identical mapping of the functions
having identical dichotomies
identity symmentry/transform from math?
ILE - universal TIM
cognition is main and universal quality of humanity
science is collective attractor to truth
very important place in system of philosophy and sciences - gnoseology, epistemology, methodology, psychology, hermeneutics, cybersemiotics?
Existence - universal trait
every element in sociocs corresponds to a dichotomy. the only exeption is existence dichotomy which works as identity element in the groups of dichotomies
Duality
bifurcation
polarities - dichotomies - pattern
having a dual in the system and relationships itself
2layered model A (functions-elements)
hadamard matrices are used in pattern recognition (check?)
fractal patterns method
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/socion-hypercube-4a968d3d531744f7a5b0e354dda46dea
Dichotomy Generations pattern
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| 1 | 3 | 3 | |
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| 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 |
| 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 |
| 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 |
Dear Terry!
It’s Sergey Shaneri from Russia again. Actually from Kazakhstan at the moment :D
I keep studying the applications of fractal methodology in humanities, as well as reading Psyche’s Veil in dark days of life. Your stories touch me very deeply and help me to process what’s happening inside.
I would be delighted to share the methodological insight we found here studying socionics.
First of all Socionics is science, which subject is Information Metabolism. It is based on Jung’s psychological types, his ideas of symmetry and hierarchy in the psyche’s structure/ Socionics is similar to MBTI, but it found a more profound methodological way by applying combinatorics to Jung’s ideas and then other mathematics branches to develop/discover/describe a formal structure of psyche, society and how the information is processed.{include chaos dynamics, group theory}
reply: chaos dynamics is hypothetical still i guess, group theory and other algebraic stuff yeah
The whole socionics structure is a linear fractal, which helped me to grasp the profoundness of the fractal epistemology and find your works. {what is meant by linear fractal, how does it relate exactly?}
reply: i used one of her definition but then i saw her using it in another sense, so we are yet to define the class of socionics fractal and its relation to Sylvester Hadamard Matrix (also Walsh matrix)
As, I’m sure, you can feel, it is an extremely controversial subject, which requires professional methodological awareness and explanation. Socionics has been developed by people of different sciences (mostly technical ones) and faced the archetypal fate of fractals and transpersonal psychology.
Things got even more complicated because of the subjectivity of interpretations in socionics. Every socionist develops his own philosophical theory and there is no way to find common ground in socionics community at the moment. Everybody just understands it differently. Not only because it has a fractal in its structure, but because the very process of interpretation of this structure is fractal, and the result - the semantics of information - is fractal (high five to Meaning Monger :D), and can you imagine what happens when 2 people try to define someone’s type? Oh I’ve never seen anything as chaotic as socionics group typings, you never know how many versions you will get, but everybody believes there is only one true answer.
Because of this paradoxically messy and beautiful situation I can’t recommend you any particular source to understand the methodological and fractal part of socionics, but you can get more familiar with the basics on https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Wikisocion_home
It is the dream of a lot of socionist for socionics to become a language for humanities due to its formal science properties and extremely deep potential to describe psychological phenomena as well as abstract meanings. It is deeply connected (I’d say fractally shares the subject) with philosophy, general psychology, sociology, ethics, aesthetics, logics, linguistics, information theory and I’m sure we can keep listing it…
I’m working on a list of fractal properties in socionics methodology.
Also I’m doing the translation of your 2020 IJTS paper to russian, I think people need to know this. ^_^
Looking forward to speak to you, because spoken english is easier to me :D
Thank you Terry! Wish you love <3
Suggestions for Terry’s letter (rough draft):
Lettuce perhaps begin with the idea of life, of what it means to live. This is super obvious like we breathe and live all the time how can this not be obvious?
Cell = smallest most basic unit of life → zoom in/out to consider more fully → are viruses alive? Like a fractal, as we shift our perspective on the definition of life, do we then begin to realize that life and living things exhibit a remarkable degree of complexity.
Every cell produces components that help make other cells, so a cell can therefore be seen as a system responsible for producing the conditions and organization of its own universe. A virus is not ordinarily considered able to replicate itself on its own. It leads a “borrowed life,” a “SHADOW” life. [Analogy to the Unconscious and Irrationality as orthogonal to Consciousness and Rationality, that is, there is now an emerging distinction between “Capsid Encoding Organisms” and “Ribosome Encoding Organisms.” < https://www.rsb.org.uk/biologist-features/larger-than-life >]
Viruses INFLUENCE life [like how unconscious “lurks beneath” and influences consciousness, how both are independent and orthogonal] Nobel Laureate Salvador Luria asks, “‘May we not feel that in the virus, in their merging with the cellular genome and reemerging from them, we observe the units and process which, in the course of evolution, have created the successful genetic patterns that underlie all living cells?”
Viruses = fuzzy boundaries between living and non-living, as Terry might agree, they live between dimensions {insert __}
A system responsible for producing the conditions and organization of its own universe = IDENTITY. Lettuce recourse back to the cell (and zoom in on identity):
The cell produces itself, we may agree with Humberto and Valera here (and Terry who cites these cybernetic guys in her papers) that the cell is “auto-poetic” (extending this agreement to Jung with his never-ending process of individuation, of finding oneself (that Terry does in her clinical work)).
[Humberto and Valera → Luhhman]
Overall idea here is to intellectually kiss Terry’s ass because she’s human. In trying to make a “Scientific Psychology” she uses the idea of fractals as a bridge to understanding our own infinite inner depth? That the subjective can be studied objectively? (in the footsteps of Jung),
She writes “I believe this newly discovered symmetry represents the SIGN FOR IDENDTITY in nature, the pattern of patterning {which is what Jung speaks of}”
Also this is the BEST abstract I’ve read of her papers, titled “The Self as a Dynamical System”< https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1021958829905 >
i’ve never read it so Im printing out the 32 pages rn and gonna read and reflect BRB the abstract is below
“Sciences of chaos and complexity theory reveal new universalities in nature applicable to psychology. This article proposes that the psychic structure long known as the “self” is best conceptualized as an open, complex, dynamical system. With chaos at the core of development, healthy selves self-organize and evolve to the edge of chaos, where they are capable of flexible reorganization in response to unpredictable social and environmental contingencies. The boundaries of the self are dynamically fluid and ever changing, mediated by complex, recursive, feedback loops existing simultaneously at physical, social, cultural, and historical levels. Because of multiplicity and multistability, wherein multiple descriptions and states are simultaneously possible, it is suggested that the self be considered dynamically as a process-structure that is fractally organized. “
Other Alex thoughts:
Ego = Blocking? Leading + Creative
Persona = Role + Vulnerable?
Anima/Animus = Suggestive + Mobilizing/HA
Shadow = Ignoring + Demonstrative
cmm: i think that the mapping works only one way, so the ID block is more than just the shadow
Cmmresp: What is the way that the mapping would work? ID is more than just the shadow, as in, the shadow is only one type of blocking that fan be formed from I and D?
cmm: dunno, i think we can generalize to another question. what is a sufficient condition for saying that we found how some phenomenon from general psychology taking place in socionics
how do we prove that’s it and not something else. probably it would require some definitions every time. and since the interpretations are infinite in socionics we need kinda logic rules, methodology for that kind of interpretations
upd: i think shadow is semantically connected to ignoring fucntion, but it can also inspire and focus the state (Ni).
but what i know from therapy shadow is highly related to trauma and complexes, which should be related to other functions as well (PolR?)
“Ego as general term”
-Typological Identity = attraction to Jungian element of information; what are the boundaries? The rules that perhaps structure these Jungian elements (Ji/Je:Pi/P)
cmm: when i type someone i always look whether the behavior is universal (fits for everyman) typological or individual (trauma and culture) - the one in the middle is TIM’s identity
-Jung states in the beginning of his Psychological Types, that his descriptions are of unhealthy, one-sided types, since as errbody knows we are equally (E/I).
cmm: i’m not sure he wasn’t wrong here
He goes on to literally state, “The attitude of the unconscious [P] as an effective complement to the conscious extraverted attitude [EJ] has a definitely introverting character [I]. It focuses libido upon the subjective factor [?]”
From this, we gain a spectrum of Extro-Introversion, namely:
EJ-EP-IJ-IP
cmm: also am not sure that spectrum approach is adequate to socionics